we give them hope for their future. >> nicholas. >> now i'm getting as and bs and i feel more confident. >> we have a long way to go. there are so many more children that really need this help and support.

rate comes from. for job growth or job loss, the bls gathers payroll data from businesses. everyone who touches the data signs confidentiality agreements, documents are locked in saves, computers are encrypted. windows are actually papered over. custodians don't even empty the trash until the work is done. only the secretary, vice president biden and a few economists know the results in advance. they get them 12 hours in advance with no chance to change them. the bls isn't run by a political appointee. a noncareer civil servant is in charge. there are, we should point out, questions about how the bls gathers the raw data, legitimate questions. the washington examiners, con carol tweeting i don't that would have the same effect.

there is no evidence of that. the bls is constantly trying to get it right. sometimes it helps the incumbent president, sometimes not. here's what eric erickson tweeted. quote, i don't think it's healthy to indicate that the jobs numbers are cooked. a best-selling author and currently writes a blog with his wife susie. so do you really believe that people in the obama campaign, the chicago guy that you tweeted about, that they cooked the numbers? >> anderson, last night before these numbers came out, i tweeted, i wonder what the assumptions will be tomorrow. because last month, the assumptions were that participation rate dropped to the lowest level since jimmy connor. that means people quit looking

for work so they don't count. there are so many assumptions that one makes coming into these numbers. you pointed out very accurately that they polled 60,000 people out of a work force of 100 million plus to see how many people had work coming in and out. but the numbers that came out today, they were the highest numbers of household employment since june of 1983, the biggest year of the reagan recovery. the plausibility, it just doesn't seem right. maybe the numbers were wrong before, maybe they're wrong now; i don't know. but i'm involved in this economy in a very deep way right now in lots of businesses, and this econy is not growing, i guarantee you, at 5%. >> they say a number of these workers are seasonal numbers and maybe work for smaller companies that aren't really tracked in the way the bls tracks these numbers, and so maybe it's small

jobs here and there. >> maybe, but let's face it. the number that came out today from the household survey was the highest number since june of '83. >> but what evidence -- >> i have no evidence. >> you don't have any evidence. it's one thing to doubt the numbers and say they should be revised. you said, these chicago guys will do anything. >> last night i had a question mark. >> you wish it was, will these chicago guys -- okay. so you don't really stand by the notion -- >> i stand by it. i stand by these numbers should be examined. >> but do you stand by these chicago guys will do anything? >> i'm not going to change my tweet. i'm not accusing anybody of anything. >> but you say these chicago guys will do anything. >> you see they called romney a liar for the last two days. >> how would they cook the books, how would they cook the

numbers given the process? >> i have no idea whether these books are cooked. i'm very clear about that. >> but i think they may be. >> i don't know. it's impossible to have this number of people added which would represent a 5% gdp growth in the second quarter. we drew up the gdp estimate from 1.7 to 1.3. >> so isn't it responsible to say these chicago guys will do anything, you're implying -- >> you heard the president today. he's out there on 7.8. this number is too important not to have a lot of discussion about how it's arrived at and what the assumptions are. last month, participation rate, the lowest since jimmy carter. >> but has there ever in history been any evidence of the white house cooking the books? >> i have no evidence of that. somebody ought to be investigating. somebody should have looked at this and said, wait a minute. we just dropped the gdp this

month. how can we have the greatest economy since june of '83? >> there are legitimate questions about how the house -- it seems like your problem is how the house survey is done and that's always very legitimate. >> i don't want to have a lot of discussion about it. >> your tweet certainly has provoked discussion, but again -- >> this election is too important for one member based on 60,000 phone calls and 100 million plus people to determine the outcome. >> but you say, these chicago guys will do anything -- >> that's what i tweeted. >> but you don't stand by it tonight? >> what do you mean i don't stand by it? i have a tweet out there that i stand by. i can't prove they did anything to anything. >> in your heart, you believe they somehow cooked the books? >> i don't really know. but i do know this, that these numbers are implausible. >> so many politicians these days, like michelle bachmann will say something and then say,

i'm just asking the question. >> i should have put the question mark there like i did last night. a question mark would have been better at the back of that. >> so you're kind of backing away from the chicago guy part. >> what do you mean, i'm backing away? i'm not backing away from anything. i wish i had a question mark behind it, but the same implication is there. >> i'm going to bring in ali velshi. ali, what do you make of jack welch's tweet, and what do you think tonight? >> anderson, they very troubling. anybody who has asked me in my entire career in america who the best one is, that is jack welch. there are ceos and all sorts of people retweeting what he said. he is absolutely right, there are questions to be asked about the methodology.

that household survey that comes up with the unemployment number, i have said in my entire career that people should pay less attention to it. pay attention to hours worked and pay attention to wages and income. that's what touches people. but to say something like this is like donald trump saying president obama is not an american citizen without any proof. you are jack welch. jack, you've got to take this opportunity while everybody is listening to you to actually say, yes, anderson, i'm taking that tweet back. i'm going to send a new tweet to say i was exaggerating. there are problems, maybe bls should look into it, but throwing out the accusation, that's like asking the government, how often do you beat your wife? >> i should have had a question mark at the back of it, ali, let's face it, okay? the facts are, ali, no matter how you want to look at this, we had 25 economists polled before this number came out. the average number they expected was about 115,000. not one of them had a number below 8.1. they were republicans and they

were democrats. and all of a sudden -- >> i agree with you. >> you agree with that? >> i agree with everything you're saying, jack, and if your question was -- >> i wake up this morning and it's 7.8 with a bunch of assumptions. >> as the best ceo that america has ever had, there are two very powerful things you can say here. one is let's take a look at how the bls, bureau of labor statistics, and the department of labor measures employment, number one. and b, maybe mitt romney should be replacing president obama if he's not doing a good job. but to say there is corruption of somebody cooking these books, why do you do this? for a government in trust of private institutions, that's not a good thing to say. there are so many ceos that talk nonsense, what do you gain from this, jack? >> ali, i love you. i'm not talking nonsense, okay? >> i love you more, jack. >> wait a minute, wait a minute.

i told you that these numbers are implausible. we don't have a 5% gdp growth in this quarter. we don't have it, ali. we revised the second quarter down. i'm involved in 14 businesses. i've been looking at them over the last week. the third quarter is not strong, it's not strong, for restaurants -- >> let me ask you this, jack. i agree with you. this is a lousy economy. 1.3% gdp growth is lousy, and yet on wednesday night, mitt romney said again -- and by the way, barack obama backs up his claim that either one of them will create 12 million jobs in four years. that is 3 million jobs a year or 250,000 jobs a month. we got 114. at 3% economic growth, there is not an economist in this country who thinks it will be higher than 3% in 2013, 3% in 2014 and 3% in 2015. what does mitt romney think of that?

>> i don't know if he's going to get 12. i'm not a romney surrogate. i'm not in the campaign. i've never talked to the campaign. i had nothing to do with the romney -- i just believed this number should not determine the outcome of the presidential election. did you see today -- >> i agree with you. jack, you're a hero. you're a hero to businesspeople in this country. you're a hero to all sorts of people. let's just do it right now and you can go back to what you say. you did not cook the books, did you? >> i should have put a question mark behind it. >> so you believe it would have been seen as more of a provocative statement. >> there would have been a better statement. there's no question. i put a question mark. look at my tweet last night,

ali. go look at the tweet at 11:00 last night after he came back from looking at choplynn. how many times assumptions. >> and we had numbers coming out just days before the election. >> we have to come to the discussion of how this number was arrived at. >> jack, good to have you on the program. ali velshi as well. up next, mitt romney now says his remarks on the 47%, in his words, were totally wrong. keep him honest of that. and looking for more on the left and the right. we'll be right back.

look at mitt romney's stunning 180 on this. >> all right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who

believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, you name it. it's an entitlement. and the government should give it to them. and they will vote for this president no matter what. >> last night, two and a half weeks after that tape surfaced, government romney went on fox news where he was asked how he would have answered if the tape had come up in wednesday's debate. here's part of his answer. >> clearly in a campaign with hundreds, if not thousands of speeches and question and answer sessions, now and then you're going to say something that doesn't come out right. in this case i said something that's just completely wrong. >> he said "completely wrong." that's completely weird namely because the night the tape aired, mr. romney rushed to a microphone to defend his 47% remarks. he kept defending them and hounded supporters for days after that.

>> it's not elegantly stated, let me put it that way. i'm speaking off the cuff in response to a question, and i'm sure i could state it more clearly in a more effective way. >> the point of all this is the size of government is too big, and if we don't do something about it, we're going to lose vet idea of america. >> those who are dependent on government and those who think government's job is to redistribute, i'm not going to get them. >> there are makers and takers. there are producers and there are p ar asites. >> clearly what we have here is a government and society that's become dependent. >> he said, quote, i think the basic point is correct. it's what this election is about. for mr. romney, that was then. now on that, a number of issues, he seems to be trying to downplay what he once described as his severely conservative

record and recast himself as more centrist on some issues. the shift began a moment after this handshake in denver. he was insistent on government regulation, education and health care. >> how would repeal it? >> it's a lengthy discussion, but number one, preexisting conditions are covered under my plan. >> that assurance is misleading, and later on an adviser had to clarify what mr. romney actually meant. under mr. romney's plan, he said, preexisting conditions would only be covered for people who already have insurance to begin with, but are changing jobs and, therefore, health insurance plans. that's not what most people think of when it comes to preexisting conditions. ironically, the health care law that mitt romney signed in massachusetts and remains in place, it does allow for preexisting conditions whether they have health insurance or not. we will be watching big bird and

his good friend oscar the grouch. it certainly got my attention. but first we have political analyst roland martin. do you think mitt romney is taking more centrist positions? >> the 47% comment really breaks down into two. the pejorative way he talked about the 47%, you didn't show my clip. when you asked me about that the day afterwards, i said he was wrong, they aren't victims and he shouldn't use that word. the economic part of it is factually right. we are a country where 47% should be excused for paying any income taxes. >> but he said that's totally wrong. >> let me get to that. the top 47% make more than $250,000 a year and pay more

income taxes. he was wrong by saying 47%. he was right in saying 47% don't pay income taxes. you talk about lifting those people up so they can make it in america. that's what they want. they want to become taxpayers, and that's where he was totally wrong and tonal deaf. that's why i said that night, they're not victims. >> but his response right now is saying he was completely wrong, which is different than what he said earlier, saying he stated it ineloquently. >> i think what he was saying is he was completely wrong in speaking pejoratively of the 47%, and he was wrong to do that. he is wrong about the basic economics of our country. but we have gotten to a point where the country is paying no income taxes and taking advantage of the role of government.

does that mean too high, too low? that's a good argument to get into. >> i'm utterly confused right now. >> you're only confused because he's trying to explain the comment from mitt romney, and now ari is trying to explain the new comment from mitt romney where he was very clear in saying he was wrong. ari, there is no need for spin. there is no need for explanation. mitt romney said, i was wrong. the bottom line is, why is he saying this? because he knows he was hurt by it. he knows fully well going into the campaign, people who are voting for him are in the same category. >> is it wrong for president obama not to ask him about the 47% during the debate? >> it was a mistake for president obama to ask him about that, it was wrong for president obama not to say, mitt romney, are you calling out the republicans who are voting for the jobs bill in the senate? president obama left a whole bunch of stuff on the table that he could have brought up.

he absolutely should have asked him about it because it's a central issue when you talk about where we stand in this country. i simply say to ali, i know he's your guy. >> he's even saying preexistent conditions will be covered, but people who lose their job can keep their health insurance for a time. that's not what people think of when they think of a preexisting condition. >> it's something that when republicans repeal obamacare and try to replace it, they'll have to come up with that replacement so people don't gain in the system -- >> so was he lying or mistaken about his own policy? >> there is a provision in there, anderson, that will cover a portion of the people who don't have health insurance. if you paid your premiums and you have health insurance, you can't be turned down.

what he's talking about is gaining a system where you never sign up for health insurance, and once you get sick you say, you can't deny me so now i want my insurance. that's the provision he was trying to get to. >> rowland, correct me if i'm wrong. most people, if you have a preexisting condition, you'll get coverage. if you have a preexisting condition and you apply for health insurance, you can't be turned down because of it. >> this is where you take somebody at their word. there's no reason to parse. mitt romney wants it both ways. he wants to lead the dance and he also wants you to lead the dance. there were really two mitt romneys there. we're utterly confused about which one it was. this is where president obama didn't do a good job of pinning him down. maybe he thought jim lehrer was going to do it. i say, no. take the man at his word. mitt romney wants us to suck up all the stuff he's throwing out. he's not clear. he's double talking.

that's what he's doing. >> if you don't have a mandate for health care, which is what mitt romney and the republicans want, they don't want a mandate. but if people want to have health insurance, you can't sign up for something and never pay and then wonder why you get rejected because you don't do the payments. it's easier to talk about it in the length of a debate. let me remind you, in 2008, president obama ran when he was trying to get to the left of hillary clinton, and he opposed nafta. and as soon as that was gone, he never talked again about renegotiating nafta. we found out later he sent one of his top aides to -- >> one at a time, one at a time. let ari finish, please. >> both candidates have engaged in tactical maneuvering.

this is nothing new. >> i'm not saying it's anything new and i'm not saying both candidates don't shift and move to the center after primaries and stuff. the point is, it seems like he's doing that right now. ari, appreciate it. roland, thank you. new information about the border patrol officer who was shot and killed in the line of duty. the question tonight, was it friendly fire? were they eating .

new cases of deadly meningitis have been linked to steroid injections.

dr. sanjay gupta joins me after we get back.

breaking news tonight in that fatal shooting near the u.s.-mexican border. the border patrol agent murder

of nicholas ivie and the other agent on friday. the agents were shot after a tripped ground sensor near the border in arizona. officials now say patients in nearly two dozen states may have received steroid shots linked to a fungus with a deadly meningitis outbreak. all of them received steroids that came from the same manufacturer in massachusetts. chief correspondent dr. sanjay gupta is following this. he joins me now. there are two types of meningitis, sanjay. which type of this? >> this is known as fungal meningitis. it's a type of mold. bacterial meningitis is a different form. caused by bacteria, obviously. it can be treated with antibiotics. and the type of meningitis you

hear about at college campuses, that's typically viral meningitis. viral meningitis and bacterial meningitis more common but more contagious. the good news about fungal meningitis, typically it's not contagious. it's very hard to spread it from person to person. >> so they traced the source of this infection from a bad set of steroid injections. >> we've been following this for some time. what happens is you have a manufacturer that makes the medication, in this case, the steroid that you mentioned. but then it may go to a compounding facility because it's arrived in bulk, they have to divvy it up into smaller doses. sometimes they will concentrate the doses, other times they mix it with other medications. it's not about manufacturing the medication as it is mixing the dose.

incidentally, anderson, they are not linked to the fda because of that because they're not making these medications. >> so the symptoms take a matter of weeks to appear before people know they're infected. what can they see? >> it can take up to 28 days, which made the investigative part of this more challenging. but what happens with these fungal meningitis, and again, they believed the mold was literally in these vials. it can get to the small blood vessels, it can promote weakness in one side of the body, but basically what meningitis is is a weakness in the lining surrounding the brain and spinal cord. people may get terrible headaches, get dizzy, lose consciousness. and you saw the numbers, they may die. these victims were typically older patients. they got the injections because of back pain, but fungal

meningitis a very rare thing. >> there has been another form of meningitis found in gay or hiv positive men in new york; is that correct? >> that's correct. usually you identify a particular type of bacteria. it can also be more common in people who have weakened immune systems, in this case, hiv positive. and while it's not usually as deadly as fungal meningitis, it is, as you point out, anderson, much more likely to be contagious. so you get the increased transmissibility with it not being as treatable. >> and i hear pain and rashes are symptoms for that kind. >> yeah, typically neck stiffness, lots of back pain. they can develop rashes on their skin. profound headache often. even something like photophobia,

and light of any sort is hard to tolerate. >> sanjay gupta, thank you. >> thanks, anderson. in massachusetts, thousands of criminal cases have been called into question. this is a stunning thing you need to know about after this woman's arrest. she's accused of tampering with drug evidence while working as a chemist in a state police lab. a huge fallout from this legal nightmare ahead. we'll talk about it. >> announcer: meet tom, a proud dad whose online friends all "like" the photos he's posting. oscar likes tom's photos, but he loves the access to tom's personal information. oscar's an identity thief who used tom's personal info to buy new teeth and a new car, and stuck tom with the $57,000 bill. [tires squeal] now meet carl who works from the coffee shop and uses the free wi-fi. marie works from there too. she's an identity thief who used a small device to grab his wi-fi

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lifelock right now and try 60 days of identity theft protection risk-free. 60 days risk-free. use promo code: be secure order now and get this document shredder, a $29 value free. [♪...] call or go online now. [♪...] a crime lab worker accused of tampering with evidence. her arrest has called into question 34,000 criminal cases. what could drive somebody to do this? we'll talk with an expert when we continue.

welcome back. crime and punishment and an extraordinary story to tell about you tonight. a massachusetts chemist who worked for a state drug lab for nine years is accused of forging

drug results and mishandling drug samples. the damage she's done, if this is all true, could be enormous. police say she tested drug samples in 34,000 defendants while employed at the lab. the lawyers and judges are scrambling to deal with the fallout and so are the people whose convictions were based on the science that is now in question. here's susan candiotti. >> it was refreshing because i didn't think it was real. >> reporter: but it was real. until last week,ie -- eliza johnson was doing a sentence for a drug conviction, and then she was suddenly free. >> i can breathe. >> free because of this woman. the state of massachusetts is accusing dukin of tampering with drug evidence that could call into question at least 34,000 cases going back to 2003. 34,000!

at the moment, she faces only three charges. however, in boston alone, the d.a. estimates as many as 500 convicted felons could be set free. >> how big of a mess is this? >> at this point, susan, we don't know. >> reporter: at this lab now closed by the state, dukin allegedly mishandled drugs seized by police for evidence at trial. she allegedly estimated the amount of drugs at times by simply looking at them. and certified some drugs as cocaine that are now testing negative. she didn't just write down the wrong thing. prosecutors accuse her of doctoring evidence to change test results. >> she would take known cocaine from an area that she knew was cocaine and actually add them to the sample to macoca >> reporter: dukin is also charged about lying on the witness stand about the credentials on her resume, including a master's degree in chemistry she never received.

but the question is why? was dukin trying to help police? was she trying to make herself look good? so far it's a mystery. the only thing we know is what's in this court document where investigators say at first dukin denied doing anything wrong. but they say dukin later admitted, quote, i screwed up big time. i messed up. i messed up bad. it's my fault. in somy have destroyed solid police work. in others, it may have wrongfully convicted the innocent. >> this is the most egregious situation because this is government-tainted evidence that is presented against these individuals. >> how can something like this happen? >> i don't have the answer for that. the community has no confidence right now in the justice system because they're being told this scientific evidence which we're all supposed to depend on in the year 2012, is faulty. >> reporter: we tried unsuccessfully for two days to reach dukin's attorney. dukins appeared in cou wearing a monitor.

it makes moms like stephanie cooper nervous. >> i do worry about my safety and my son also. >> reporter: community organizer michael kozoo is worried about what will happen to this boston neighborhood. >> we're concerned about with people getting let back out that it's going to go back to what it used to be. >> eliza admits she was wrongfully convicted for selling crack on the street. after getting let out, she says she's out for good. what she can't get back is nearly two years she lost with her daughter for nearly eight weeks before she went to prison. >> i lost my child. i lost custody of my child, and i don't know how i'm going to fix that. >> what do you think of the chemist who is now accused of --

>> she destroyed my life. but i forgive her. as long as i have my daughter, that's all i care about. >> reporter: susan candiotti, cnn, boston. >> it's raising so many questions. digging deep now, what could possibly drive someone to do something like this and how could she get away with it so long? we talk to dan ariely, writer of "the honest truth about honesty." he joins us now. obviously you don't know this woman, you haven't interviewed her. what seems strange about this is it doesn't seem like there was any inherent reason for her to do that because she wasn't involved in the cases. >> usually when we look at crimes, any kind of crimes, we think it's just about selfish motivation. but the reality is, if you look a little deeper, it's not always just about selfish motivation. in this case it's particularly interesting because there are no selfish motivations. she was either thinking she was helping the justice system

along, ending some evidence for them, or she was under tremendous pressure to do her work correctly and doing things -- >> and that this would somehow reflect positively on her. >> reflect positively on her, be the right thing for the organization. we've tested lots of people when they cheat, and usually when we look at criminals, we have a sense of saying it's them and not us. and we could never have done what she's done, but here's what we generally do. we take a little test, a sheet of paper. we print simple math problems and we ask people, you have five minutes to do as many of those questions. people work as hard as they can. at the end of five minutes, we tell them go to the back of the room and shred it and then tell us how many questions you got correctly. people do this, they tell us 6 problems and we give them $6. what they don't know is we fixed the shredder to tell us how much they had. what did we find? people report 6, don't report 4.

we found 18,000 little cheaters who together stole $36,000. >> the ramifications of even a little cheating for her, she's in a position, 30,000 cases, it's going to cause chaos. also lying about her master's degree even though her job didn't require her to have a master's degree. >> i've looked at all the cheating on resumes. you look at somebody's resume and you say, how could somebody lie this way? often they don't start by lying this way. they take one step and change something in the resume. imagine if we could take our resume and wind the clock back. what has happened is it's not that anyone has long-term plans about where they want to end up. in her case this was not the goal. the interesting thing is once

you take a certain step, you become a different person. then you become a different person again. this doesn't excuse all these crimes or help us with the tremendous damage she's causing, but the reality is that if we just point the finger at her and other people and we say it's just them, it never could have happened to us, we're not going to create safeguards. >> one thing i've learned as a reporter and seeing people in war zones it's that we're capable of anything. we're capable of kindness and also mentality. what's interesting to me is it's small steps. and in the course of nine years, working there, even if it's small steps, she gets to place things in a categorical result. >> i'm going to take the test, but i have a chance to treat you well. now what's happened? is my cheating going up or going down? it goes down.

this is why i think politicians lie so much because they can very easily say to themselves, it's not just for me. if i get elected, it's good for you as well. dan ariely, thank you. fascinating stuff. two teenagers are responsible for the latest terrorist attack in benghazi.

i'm isha sesay with the 60-second bulletin. 2 tunisians are being questioned in the latest consulate attack. they are being questioned at the request of the united states. al-masri and four other terrorists are headed to the united states. the news comes just avlon don's high court ruled the men could be extradited. they include conspiracy as well as the massacre of 60 yemeni in 1968. they grab the iphone from this baby and walk away as if they've done nothing wrong. anderson? nothing is a-okay on sesame

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tonight we're adding all the feathers that have been ruffled about mitt romney's comments on pbs. snafu-upagus. there's been a lot of big talk about a certain big bird since he said he would get rid of pbs.

>> i'm going to stop the subsidy to pbs. i actually like big bird. i like you, too. but i'm not going to continue borrowing money without a way to pay for it. >> somebody it finally getting tough on big bird. elmo, you better make a run for it! governor romney is going to let wall street run wild again, but he's going to bring the hammer down on sesame street. >> first of all, full disclosure, i know big bird. i'm sorry to be a name dropper, but it's true. it's not like i go to dinner with him, i haven't been to his nest for drinks or anything, but i have been to his workplace. >> i'm here with two legendary grouch newscasters, dan rather not and cranky about the letter g.

say hello, dan rather not. >> i'd rather not. >> some are saying it's a war on big bird, that mitt i don't mean knee -- mitt romney wants to kill big bird, but at the end of the day, i'm not sure it's mitt romney we have to worry about with big bird's safety. >> would you kill big bird? >> as a matter of fact, i've voted to kill big bird in the past. i have a record there that i'd have to disclose. it doesn't mean i don't like big bird. you can kill things and still like them. >> yes, ladies and gentlemen, apparently rick santorum wants to not only kill big bird, he wants to eat him. and on piers morgan he was at the helm. >> that was a beautiful phrase. i think we should end on that note. yon